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today we welcome dr. Dean Radin back to

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skeptic Oh Dean is of course chief

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scientist at the Institute for noetic

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sciences as well as a best-selling

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award-winning author Dean has want to

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show you some of his books here's his

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current book here are some of the other

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fabulous books that you've written

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written really truly groundbreaking

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books and in this field to say that a

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guy has written best-selling books is

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really quite remarkable and then

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award-winning books as well so Dean is

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truly a scientist as most of you know

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because most of you are familiar with

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his work and I have a little photo here

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of the video of him actually in a lab

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with a very very interesting experiment

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that I think is just fundamental to how

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we understand the consciousness and

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science but it's not even experiment

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we're going to talk about today because

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today we're going to talk about Dean's

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new book which is not even out now but

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will be out probably when this interview

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is out it's out I think April 10th is

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that right that's right yeah April 10th

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of 2018 it's titled real magic ancient

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wisdom modern science and a guide to the

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secret power of the universe that a

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title only of only an agent or a

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publicist or a publisher could really

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come up with right you got it

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well it's it's awesome to have you back

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and to reconnect with you and you know

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if we could I obviously want to talk

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about the book a lot but I really wanted

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to start with another subject and a

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subject that I don't know you're a

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pretty humble guy so I don't know if how

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you're gonna feel about this but it's

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really the topic of legacy I'm sure

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you've thought about this a little bit

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you know I remember way back to when I

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interviewed you many many years

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I was starting the show and it's it's

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actually you know I wrote a book a

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couple years ago in consciousness and

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the first chapter of the book opens with

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this little vignette of me talking to

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you

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scientists - pretty respected scientist

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Ray Hyman from University of Oregon and

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Steve novella from Yale Neurology these

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guys are laughing at you they're

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actually laughing at Dean Radin in the

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kind of work that he does and the kind

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of research that he does and I just

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can't help but think how interesting

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this history is going to look because

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when we write this history there's no

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way you're not right in the middle of it

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and if this paradigm change that is

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happening we can't even say is about

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happening it's happening I mean

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materialistic don't be mind equals brain

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there is no consciousness I mean that

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science is is gone or is leaving the

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station for all except the very diehards

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what's it going to look like Dean how do

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you think you are going to be viewed in

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the longer lens of science history it's

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been said of Sebelius I think actually

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Sebelius the composer said this that he

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was severely criticized in during his

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musical career and he simply responded

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that no one has ever erected a statue to

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a critic so from a historical

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perspective every advancement and every

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domain of human performance of any type

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has always had attracted severe

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criticism so I take some comfort in

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reading about the great figures of

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history and basically all of them are

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attacked so it's simply par for the

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course some people can take it and

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others can't I guess I can take it how

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have you been able to take it because I

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think a lot of people

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looking from the outside you keep a very

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calm demeanor about you but there had to

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be moments when you know especially in

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this age where people freaked out at any

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Twitter post or Facebook comment or

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anything like that I think from your

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peers this kind of stuff and then if the

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hope you had the goods on these guys for

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20 years you've known that they're

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bullshitting

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how have you men maintained the ability

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to kind of keep your cool well partially

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it's by not reacting instantly it's all

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about impulse control right so an

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adolescent has no end folks control and

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and they just lash out immediately and

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so I have of course had those same

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feelings when they read something that I

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know is false but you just wait for a

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while and then you you can think about

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how how do you want to respond in some

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cases they don't respond at all because

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what's being said is just nonsense in

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other cases I do respond but typically

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in writing I have given up on debates

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people sometimes want a live debate

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between me and somebody who has a

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different opinion and I don't do that

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because it's it's a false equivalency

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for one thing and the debate is really

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just a matter of entertainment and I'm

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not that interested in entertainment

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let's be clear it's a false equivalency

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when you argue with someone who doesn't

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have any evidence doesn't have a handle

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on the data and is just kind of

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expressing an opinion versus using

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replicated and experiment 50 times I

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mean that's not really a debate is it

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right and that's and it might be fun for

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people to watch but I have no interest

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in doing that so yeah it's a false

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equivalency in terms of the degree of

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confidence on each side of the debate

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you know one more question on this

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legacy thing let's speculate for a

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minute let's kind of project into the

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future because I think it's fun and I

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think it's valid to do so at this point

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what do you think the writing of this

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chapter of history this post-materialism

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chapter is going to

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look like how are they you know I always

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think back a long long time ago you told

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me your version of the famous thing

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about how truth passes through three

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phases first its ridiculed then its

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violently opposed and then finally and

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the way that you put it which is a

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little bit different than the normal way

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here but I love the spin is that then

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everyone comes out of the closet says oh

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well they you just carefully read my

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paper you'll see that that's what I was

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really saying all along kind of thing

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yeah do you want to expound on that a

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little bit well actually it you see this

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repeated through history Schopenhauer

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was probably the one one of the few who

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said it initially and it's been copied

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in many different ways yeah the ending

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of that is the former skeptics will then

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start saying oh well they I thought of

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it first that's that's the the endgame

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but again the in looking at the history

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especially through the sociology of

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science lens you see this again and

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again so you can easily get caught up

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into the the heat of the moment but if I

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tend to take a long view of everything

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and from that perspective you then I can

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then see myself as a player in a long

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game so you asked about post-materialism

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post-materialism as a word actually

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isn't isn't very good because it's a

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promissory note so the way I would put

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it in that you have to see what's

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happening in historical context that

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there's a pre materialism and that a

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materialism and then a post materialism

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so this evolutionary strand is that pre

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materialism we can think of as before

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the Middle Ages where everything was

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considered supernatural and everything

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was created by gods and so on that was

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before science so there wasn't any any

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way of grasping in any detail what was

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going on

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so everything was was supernatural when

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science began and I mean it flourished

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say in the Enlightenment this between

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a-15 and hundreds and 1700s a

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in that period a method was developed

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which allowed us to look in much more

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detail at the nature of nature and that

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is materialism it's both a philosophical

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stance and a set of tools to be able to

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understand things and we know that it

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works really great because it allows us

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to make things like this which has more

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computing power than any computer in the

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world 20 years ago and that will

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continue

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so it's becomes very seductive to

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imagine that everything can be explained

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using that philosophical basis but what

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we're what's happening now is that and

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this is largely driven by puzzles about

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the nature of consciousness that the

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materialism is really good at looking at

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the world from the outside it's it's

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good at objectivity but both from

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quantum mechanics and now also in

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philosophy and mathematics and in

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physics in general is this puzzle of how

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does a material object give rise to an

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interior tea how does it how does all of

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this objective stuff that we see and

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feel have an inside experience that

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doesn't seem to be physical well they're

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people who are trying to come up with

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ideas that say how matter can turn into

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mind but a growing number of scientists

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and scholars are saying maybe not then

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this is why ideas like pan psychism are

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becoming more popular now that's very

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difficult to figure out how you how a

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three pound lump of tissue in there is

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giving rise to what amounts to our

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entire experience including all of our

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all of our ideas about the way that the

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universe is all of our laws all of our

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physical laws everything is due to the

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inside here that is somehow coming out

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of this matter so post-materialism is

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saying maybe we've jumped the gun a

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little bit and set aside consciousness

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as as an epiphenomenon that wasn't very

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meaningful and actually looks like it

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might be way more meaningful than we

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originally thought so post-materialism

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is moving science and scholarship into

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the direction where consciousness is now

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seen

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something that deserves a very serious

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look that is not simply the neuroscience

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approach but many different approaches

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so that's a very long-winded description

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of what post-materialism is but I think

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seeing it in context makes it easier to

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understand well I think it does too

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and I think it particularly makes it

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easier well I don't know if it does make

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it easier because in typical Dean Radin

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fashion what you've done now is jumped

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way past that those two or three steps

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and have published this new book real

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magic what you're saying in this book

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straight out is sigh that is the ongoing

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investigation that you've done in trying

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to take this post materialistic

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understanding of consciousness that

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you're just talking about and the last

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30 maybe 40 years I don't want to date

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you too much but that what you've done

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is taken that alternative idea and

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brought it into the lab put it under

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this thing called parapsychology under

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this umbrella we call SCI and have

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investigated it and now in this book

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you're saying SCI is really magic I mean

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we have to start there what is this book

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about what are you saying when you say

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SCI is magic well when we use the word

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magic people think of Harry Potter first

275
00:12:43,590 --> 00:12:41,649
and Harry Houdini second and that's not

276
00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:43,600
what we're talking about both of those

277
00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:45,810
are fun and interesting and

278
00:12:51,210 --> 00:12:48,250
embellishments of the third kind of

279
00:12:54,810 --> 00:12:51,220
magic which is the real magic so real

280
00:12:57,810 --> 00:12:54,820
magic is talking about the esoteric

281
00:12:59,550 --> 00:12:57,820
traditions most of which were pre

282
00:13:03,750 --> 00:12:59,560
scientific and they go all the way back

283
00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:03,760
to shamanism and we know them as as for

284
00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:06,930
Metis ISM as the Kabbalah and in

285
00:13:14,910 --> 00:13:10,810
neoplatonism more modern times the

286
00:13:16,230 --> 00:13:14,920
Rosicrucians the Freemasons theosophy on

287
00:13:18,030 --> 00:13:16,240
and on and on all the way up to the

288
00:13:19,949 --> 00:13:18,040
present day figure out how do you

289
00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:19,959
explain sigh let's just simply assume

290
00:13:24,420 --> 00:13:21,850
that the laboratory evidence

291
00:13:26,819 --> 00:13:24,430
is strong enough that psychic phenomena

292
00:13:28,889 --> 00:13:26,829
exist that we simply take that as a

293
00:13:30,300 --> 00:13:28,899
starting point and now you're saying

294
00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:30,310
well how do we explain this in a

295
00:13:36,150 --> 00:13:33,730
scientific way well to do it wearing the

296
00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:36,160
Hat of a conventional scientist today it

297
00:13:41,910 --> 00:13:37,569
has to be done within the scientific

298
00:13:43,620 --> 00:13:41,920
worldview which is materialism so many

299
00:13:45,509 --> 00:13:43,630
efforts have been taken to develop

300
00:13:48,780 --> 00:13:45,519
theories that that would be called

301
00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:48,790
scientific based in materialism to

302
00:13:54,030 --> 00:13:51,850
describe how psy works and you see this

303
00:13:55,620 --> 00:13:54,040
again and again that somebody who hasn't

304
00:13:57,749 --> 00:13:55,630
been involved in parapsychology but is

305
00:13:59,160 --> 00:13:57,759
interested in the phenomena will say

306
00:14:01,710 --> 00:13:59,170
well you know I have this theory about

307
00:14:04,050 --> 00:14:01,720
telepathy it's it's because they're the

308
00:14:06,059 --> 00:14:04,060
brain is an electrical thing and the

309
00:14:08,460 --> 00:14:06,069
electromagnetics are broadcasting out

310
00:14:10,769 --> 00:14:08,470
and so somebody else is receiving those

311
00:14:12,150 --> 00:14:10,779
electromagnetic waves and decoding it

312
00:14:14,819 --> 00:14:12,160
somehow and that's how Phillip is he

313
00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:14,829
works so this idea of mental radio has

314
00:14:19,410 --> 00:14:16,930
been around for a very long time and has

315
00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:19,420
been tested up the wazoo and it doesn't

316
00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:21,850
work we know that it's not an

317
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:26,050
electromagnetic phenomenon and so other

318
00:14:29,999 --> 00:14:27,970
theories have either

319
00:14:32,009 --> 00:14:30,009
looked at the quantum mechanics as a

320
00:14:34,650 --> 00:14:32,019
possible way of thinking about it

321
00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:34,660
of course quantum mechanics is would be

322
00:14:39,269 --> 00:14:36,850
a big stretch to say that we're this is

323
00:14:42,990 --> 00:14:39,279
materialism in the classical sense it's

324
00:14:44,939 --> 00:14:43,000
a very odd space that it describes but

325
00:14:47,069 --> 00:14:44,949
nevertheless it's taking something

326
00:14:50,009 --> 00:14:47,079
within the existing worldview and trying

327
00:14:53,790 --> 00:14:50,019
to shove sy into it or shoehorn an

328
00:14:56,220 --> 00:14:53,800
explanation that way and all of those

329
00:14:58,110 --> 00:14:56,230
theories don't work if they worked then

330
00:15:00,749 --> 00:14:58,120
then people would would be accepting

331
00:15:04,379 --> 00:15:00,759
sigh today and they generally don't work

332
00:15:06,420 --> 00:15:04,389
so what else do we do we're faced with a

333
00:15:08,009 --> 00:15:06,430
puzzle where we have phenomena that we

334
00:15:09,509 --> 00:15:08,019
can demonstrate in the laboratory and

335
00:15:11,970 --> 00:15:09,519
people talk about it and experience it

336
00:15:13,910 --> 00:15:11,980
all the time that our scientific

337
00:15:18,090 --> 00:15:13,920
worldview does not accommodate very well

338
00:15:20,189 --> 00:15:18,100
so I decided to look for other clues

339
00:15:23,150 --> 00:15:20,199
about what's going on and the most

340
00:15:26,069 --> 00:15:23,160
obvious clue is the esoteric traditions

341
00:15:28,439 --> 00:15:26,079
and when you start looking at that and

342
00:15:30,809 --> 00:15:28,449
of course I had read a bunch of books

343
00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:30,819
about the various kinds of esoteric

344
00:15:35,700 --> 00:15:33,250
ideas or over many years but I never

345
00:15:39,300 --> 00:15:35,710
really seriously tried to synthesize

346
00:15:41,820 --> 00:15:39,310
what was going on and so I took off

347
00:15:43,530 --> 00:15:41,830
about six months and read probably

348
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:43,540
hundreds of books and thousands of

349
00:15:47,580 --> 00:15:45,130
articles on this to see if I could

350
00:15:48,900 --> 00:15:47,590
create a synthesis and I did which is

351
00:15:51,380 --> 00:15:48,910
what I write about it in the book and

352
00:15:53,340 --> 00:15:51,390
the bottom line comes down to

353
00:15:55,530 --> 00:15:53,350
essentially the consciousness is

354
00:15:57,330 --> 00:15:55,540
fundamental consciousness is more

355
00:15:59,430 --> 00:15:57,340
fundamental than the physical world

356
00:16:05,300 --> 00:15:59,440
that's the philosophical stance of

357
00:16:09,450 --> 00:16:05,310
idealism and there now a number of

358
00:16:11,220 --> 00:16:09,460
contemporary philosophers and scientists

359
00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:11,230
who are beginning to think that idealism

360
00:16:16,020 --> 00:16:13,570
is actually a better world view than

361
00:16:17,580 --> 00:16:16,030
materialism and they have good reasons

362
00:16:21,810 --> 00:16:17,590
for that which I also talk about in the

363
00:16:23,430 --> 00:16:21,820
book if that is true that idealism is a

364
00:16:25,860 --> 00:16:23,440
better way of thinking about the nature

365
00:16:28,530 --> 00:16:25,870
of reality then suddenly all of the

366
00:16:30,930 --> 00:16:28,540
stories about magic and sigh make

367
00:16:33,090 --> 00:16:30,940
perfect sense it's no longer difficult

368
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:33,100
to figure out how those things would

369
00:16:39,990 --> 00:16:37,210
work it's simply part of the mix so the

370
00:16:41,970 --> 00:16:40,000
magic I'm talking about then it falls

371
00:16:44,100 --> 00:16:41,980
into three categories and this is all

372
00:16:46,770 --> 00:16:44,110
based on what you see again and again

373
00:16:49,710 --> 00:16:46,780
over thousands of years one category of

374
00:16:51,930 --> 00:16:49,720
magic is divination so we think of it as

375
00:16:54,510 --> 00:16:51,940
tarot cards crystal gate crystal ball

376
00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:54,520
gazing and so on that's exactly what we

377
00:16:59,700 --> 00:16:56,170
call precognition and clairvoyance in

378
00:17:02,340 --> 00:16:59,710
the side world the other type is in

379
00:17:04,980 --> 00:17:02,350
magical terms we call it call force of

380
00:17:07,020 --> 00:17:04,990
will which in side terms we call

381
00:17:11,430 --> 00:17:07,030
psychokinesis some mind-over-matter

382
00:17:13,050 --> 00:17:11,440
effects and the third type in the

383
00:17:16,350 --> 00:17:13,060
magical tradition would be called Theor

384
00:17:18,890 --> 00:17:16,360
G which in the SCI world would be

385
00:17:23,060 --> 00:17:18,900
evidence for survival after bodily death

386
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:23,070
so in each of the traditional magical

387
00:17:28,470 --> 00:17:26,170
concepts parapsychology has been

388
00:17:30,750 --> 00:17:28,480
studying these phenomena for over

389
00:17:32,820 --> 00:17:30,760
century as verified that there's

390
00:17:35,910 --> 00:17:32,830
evidence that such things exist in which

391
00:17:41,550 --> 00:17:35,920
case traditional and magical ideas also

392
00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:41,560
exist so again a long-winded answer and

393
00:17:46,110 --> 00:17:44,290
of course it took a book actually to to

394
00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:46,120
flesh it out in enough detail to make

395
00:17:49,980 --> 00:17:48,610
what I just said to be crystal clear but

396
00:17:52,659 --> 00:17:49,990
that's the essence of

397
00:17:54,460 --> 00:17:52,669
well I don't think it's what long-winded

398
00:17:57,580 --> 00:17:54,470
at all as a matter of fact I'm gonna

399
00:17:58,810 --> 00:17:57,590
return to the topic we keep pounding on

400
00:18:01,659 --> 00:17:58,820
over and over again and that is

401
00:18:03,330 --> 00:18:01,669
consciousness because I think you know

402
00:18:06,370 --> 00:18:03,340
when you say consciousness is

403
00:18:09,610 --> 00:18:06,380
fundamental I guess

404
00:18:11,020 --> 00:18:09,620
that is such a huge paradigm shift as

405
00:18:13,570 --> 00:18:11,030
you just talked about and this is the

406
00:18:15,730 --> 00:18:13,580
point of your book and the point that

407
00:18:20,230 --> 00:18:15,740
you just made there but I want to give

408
00:18:23,230 --> 00:18:20,240
people a sense for just where mainstream

409
00:18:25,270 --> 00:18:23,240
science and then frontier science and

410
00:18:29,289 --> 00:18:25,280
the scientists that they're likely to

411
00:18:30,909 --> 00:18:29,299
encounter are on this topic and you know

412
00:18:34,870 --> 00:18:30,919
I ran across I want to play for you this

413
00:18:37,750 --> 00:18:34,880
clip from my buddy I think is one of the

414
00:18:40,060 --> 00:18:37,760
great nitwit scientists of our time

415
00:18:41,620 --> 00:18:40,070
of course neil degrasse tyson and here

416
00:18:44,470 --> 00:18:41,630
he is being interviewed by Larry King

417
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:44,480
now this is a recent interview and

418
00:18:48,340 --> 00:18:46,610
here's what he has to say about

419
00:18:51,039 --> 00:18:48,350
consciousness let me play for this for

420
00:18:52,780 --> 00:18:51,049
you and see if you can hear it you're

421
00:18:55,030 --> 00:18:52,790
not conscious and that's for eternity

422
00:18:57,669 --> 00:18:55,040
right all right there's no evidence that

423
00:19:00,070 --> 00:18:57,679
I have any consciousness of anything and

424
00:19:03,100 --> 00:19:00,080
by the way is that so weird

425
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:03,110
did you have consciousness before you

426
00:19:06,310 --> 00:19:03,770
were born

427
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:06,320
were you saying how come I'm not on

428
00:19:10,430 --> 00:19:07,970
earth oh my gosh I need to be on earth

429
00:19:12,799 --> 00:19:10,440
or how could wait where am I

430
00:19:14,269 --> 00:19:12,809
I mean I'd know what what Tyson says

431
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:14,279
about this and he's not a nitwit

432
00:19:21,169 --> 00:19:18,090
he's a articulate spokesman for the

433
00:19:23,299 --> 00:19:21,179
prevailing scientific worldview and then

434
00:19:25,610 --> 00:19:23,309
oh no III have to I mean

435
00:19:27,830 --> 00:19:25,620
nitwit is too strong and name-calling

436
00:19:31,220 --> 00:19:27,840
never does anybody any good and then it

437
00:19:34,340 --> 00:19:31,230
gets everyone off track but what he's

438
00:19:36,409 --> 00:19:34,350
saying it's just it's just silliness I

439
00:19:38,740 --> 00:19:36,419
mean it's just if you deconstruct it

440
00:19:41,090 --> 00:19:38,750
even at the simplest level it's it's

441
00:19:42,710 --> 00:19:41,100
silliness and that's why I was gonna

442
00:19:44,570 --> 00:19:42,720
play this next clip and I'm gonna have

443
00:19:47,060 --> 00:19:44,580
to send this one to you because as you

444
00:19:49,220 --> 00:19:47,070
can see on the screen it's two people

445
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:49,230
who really have studied consciousness

446
00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:51,090
right so the problem with neil degrasse

447
00:19:55,039 --> 00:19:53,129
tyson which is the problem with got it

448
00:19:57,460 --> 00:19:55,049
science in general especially media

449
00:19:59,749 --> 00:19:57,470
scientists as they can't resist

450
00:20:00,980 --> 00:19:59,759
answering any question that's thrown

451
00:20:02,869 --> 00:20:00,990
their way even if they have no

452
00:20:05,090 --> 00:20:02,879
qualifications for it and certainly neil

453
00:20:07,009 --> 00:20:05,100
degrasse tyson has zero qualifications

454
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:07,019
in terms of consciousness he just does

455
00:20:12,129 --> 00:20:09,090
it he doesn't know anything about it at

456
00:20:14,869 --> 00:20:12,139
least in this one and it's a

457
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:14,879
conversation between Sam Harris and

458
00:20:21,519 --> 00:20:17,970
David Chalmers David Chalmers being one

459
00:20:24,590 --> 00:20:21,529
of the I guess you'd say for most public

460
00:20:27,999 --> 00:20:24,600
consciousness researchers in the last 20

461
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:28,009
years and Sam Harris is really just a

462
00:20:33,830 --> 00:20:30,450
neuroscience guy and kind of this public

463
00:20:36,490 --> 00:20:33,840
figure atheist guy who's been engaged at

464
00:20:41,210 --> 00:20:36,500
least in the consciousness kind of

465
00:20:42,980 --> 00:20:41,220
debate and I'll play this for people and

466
00:20:45,610 --> 00:20:42,990
then if you'll allow me I'll tell you

467
00:20:48,639 --> 00:20:45,620
what they said there is something

468
00:20:52,690 --> 00:20:48,649
seeming to happen and that seeming is

469
00:20:54,980 --> 00:20:52,700
all you need to assert the absolute

470
00:20:57,710 --> 00:20:54,990
undeniable reality of consciousness I

471
00:21:00,200 --> 00:20:57,720
mean that is that is the fact of

472
00:21:02,869 --> 00:21:00,210
consciousness every bit as much as any

473
00:21:04,879 --> 00:21:02,879
other case in which you might assert its

474
00:21:08,180 --> 00:21:04,889
existence so I just don't see how a

475
00:21:12,230 --> 00:21:08,190
claim that consciousness itself is an

476
00:21:15,169 --> 00:21:12,240
illusion can ever fly yeah I think um

477
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:15,179
yeah I'm with you on this I think Dan's

478
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:17,610
views have actually evolved a bit this

479
00:21:23,149 --> 00:21:20,850
is kind of a good arc

480
00:21:24,230 --> 00:21:23,159
story arc of where we're going so we

481
00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:24,240
still have new

482
00:21:27,799 --> 00:21:26,130
deGrasse Tyson and Larry King and

483
00:21:29,690 --> 00:21:27,809
holding the party line well of course

484
00:21:31,610 --> 00:21:29,700
consciousness is an illusion and that we

485
00:21:33,049 --> 00:21:31,620
have people who are really on the

486
00:21:36,799 --> 00:21:33,059
cutting edge of consciousness research

487
00:21:39,590 --> 00:21:36,809
saying we can't really even pretend like

488
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:39,600
that's whatever it is it's not an

489
00:21:48,049 --> 00:21:44,250
illusion so you've spoken already in

490
00:21:52,419 --> 00:21:48,059
this interview to that shift what do you

491
00:21:55,970 --> 00:21:52,429
think of the players on the field and

492
00:21:58,340 --> 00:21:55,980
where they're going to stand now and in

493
00:22:01,430 --> 00:21:58,350
the future and how this thing is going

494
00:22:03,380 --> 00:22:01,440
to play out and in particular again you

495
00:22:06,020 --> 00:22:03,390
know put it in the context of your book

496
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:06,030
real magic where you're just jumping two

497
00:22:10,730 --> 00:22:08,250
steps ahead and going hey it's game over

498
00:22:12,140 --> 00:22:10,740
and we have to start looking beyond all

499
00:22:13,850 --> 00:22:12,150
this stuff we've been talking about we

500
00:22:15,380 --> 00:22:13,860
have to start looking at the esoteric

501
00:22:18,470 --> 00:22:15,390
traditions we have to start looking at

502
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:18,480
things like magic it's just no longer

503
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:22,050
even makes any sense to talk about this

504
00:22:26,750 --> 00:22:23,730
stuff in terms of the way we've been

505
00:22:30,260 --> 00:22:26,760
talking about it well I think it's

506
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:30,270
important first of all to not view

507
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:33,330
either consciousness or magic as a

508
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:36,090
regression to the past we're not moving

509
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:38,090
backwards to a pre scientific domain

510
00:22:44,900 --> 00:22:42,570
where instead advancing science into an

511
00:22:47,750 --> 00:22:44,910
area where it has stiff-armed for many

512
00:22:50,660 --> 00:22:47,760
years and the notion that consciousness

513
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:50,670
is an illusion is just as silly as

514
00:22:55,940 --> 00:22:53,490
behaviorism was but it nevertheless held

515
00:22:59,660 --> 00:22:55,950
the academic world spellbound for 50

516
00:23:02,930 --> 00:22:59,670
years where consciousness was denied so

517
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:02,940
how do we move forward well one of the

518
00:23:08,330 --> 00:23:05,250
things I think that one of the reasons

519
00:23:10,669 --> 00:23:08,340
why academics are so resistant to this

520
00:23:13,940 --> 00:23:10,679
idea and by the way to anything about

521
00:23:15,470 --> 00:23:13,950
parapsychology is a phrase that I've

522
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:15,480
heard many times which is that what

523
00:23:19,220 --> 00:23:17,850
you're doing can't be correct because if

524
00:23:20,540 --> 00:23:19,230
it is we have to throw away all the

525
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:20,550
textbooks and start over again

526
00:23:26,210 --> 00:23:23,730
so that's an expression of fear so I

527
00:23:29,290 --> 00:23:26,220
would say there there's some merit to

528
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:29,300
that argument because when you look at

529
00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:32,490
you you look at will the way textbooks

530
00:23:37,670 --> 00:23:35,370
advance they're pretty much from from a

531
00:23:39,170 --> 00:23:37,680
textbook 20 years ago to today

532
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:39,180
there's some overlap but a lot of it has

533
00:23:44,930 --> 00:23:41,610
changed because science is a dynamically

534
00:23:47,810 --> 00:23:44,940
moving target so we're already throwing

535
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:47,820
away the textbooks so this is not a big

536
00:23:52,970 --> 00:23:50,490
issue but there's underlying fear about

537
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:52,980
maybe what I'm doing is not correct and

538
00:23:57,350 --> 00:23:55,050
it has to be correct because my whole

539
00:24:01,490 --> 00:23:57,360
career depends on it so how do we

540
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:01,500
prevent that fear from from stopping

541
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:06,450
further further advancements to say

542
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:09,450
nothing of we have very high confidence

543
00:24:14,150 --> 00:24:11,850
that some disciplines especially

544
00:24:16,250 --> 00:24:14,160
engineering disciplines must be correct

545
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:16,260
because otherwise our technologies

546
00:24:21,110 --> 00:24:17,970
wouldn't work so it doesn't make sense

547
00:24:23,690 --> 00:24:21,120
to start over again so what I propose

548
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:23,700
then that I talk about this in the book

549
00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:27,090
as the way out of it is to do what

550
00:24:30,980 --> 00:24:29,370
science has always done it starts with a

551
00:24:33,260 --> 00:24:30,990
couple of core things we have high

552
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:33,270
confidence are correct and we simply

553
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:35,490
expand it becomes more comprehensive

554
00:24:39,850 --> 00:24:37,770
just like classical physics we can

555
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:39,860
quantum physics it's the same stuff

556
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:42,570
quantum physics predicts the same stuff

557
00:24:48,260 --> 00:24:45,690
that classical physics does but it has a

558
00:24:52,460 --> 00:24:48,270
more comprehensive worldview so we do

559
00:24:55,070 --> 00:24:52,470
the same for science overall and rather

560
00:24:56,660 --> 00:24:55,080
than somehow mysteriously consciousness

561
00:24:59,150 --> 00:24:56,670
is arising out of matter in some way

562
00:25:00,860 --> 00:24:59,160
that nobody can explain we simply start

563
00:25:03,700 --> 00:25:00,870
with a different philosophical base

564
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:03,710
where instead of putting physics at the

565
00:25:09,290 --> 00:25:06,810
bottom of our knowledge pyramid we put

566
00:25:11,390 --> 00:25:09,300
consciousness and that this essentially

567
00:25:13,850 --> 00:25:11,400
is what idealism is all about anyway and

568
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:13,860
it's not say idealism doesn't say that

569
00:25:17,810 --> 00:25:15,450
the world doesn't have certain lawful

570
00:25:19,580 --> 00:25:17,820
regularities that we call science and

571
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:19,590
saying that at the notion of what we

572
00:25:27,140 --> 00:25:23,930
think consciousness is is mistaken so I

573
00:25:30,530 --> 00:25:27,150
then go through this exercise in the

574
00:25:33,020 --> 00:25:30,540
book we're on the theory element where

575
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:33,030
if you imagine that you carve up the

576
00:25:38,570 --> 00:25:35,490
world through scientific disciplines and

577
00:25:40,670 --> 00:25:38,580
you put it in the form of a pyramid or

578
00:25:42,260 --> 00:25:40,680
the base of the pyramid is physics and

579
00:25:44,860 --> 00:25:42,270
then on top of that is chemistry and the

580
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:44,870
biology and then psychology and so on

581
00:25:49,970 --> 00:25:47,450
according to the prevailing view

582
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:49,980
consciousness somehow pops out of the

583
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:51,410
top of that pyramid

584
00:25:55,070 --> 00:25:53,490
which means it has to be made out of

585
00:25:56,919 --> 00:25:55,080
matter because everything in the pyramid

586
00:25:59,630 --> 00:25:56,929
is matter and an energy

587
00:26:01,130 --> 00:25:59,640
well what if that's wrong and what if

588
00:26:03,530 --> 00:26:01,140
actually is going on which is what all

589
00:26:04,789 --> 00:26:03,540
of the esoteric traditions say is that

590
00:26:07,310 --> 00:26:04,799
the pyramid is actually sitting on a

591
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:07,320
layer below which is awareness or

592
00:26:11,510 --> 00:26:08,850
consciousness it permeates everything

593
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:11,520
and because it's below physics

594
00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:13,890
it means it's prior to space time matter

595
00:26:18,919 --> 00:26:16,710
and energy before that everything we

596
00:26:24,260 --> 00:26:18,929
know about the physical world emerges

597
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:24,270
out of awareness in some way so from

598
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:26,490
that perspective just like electrons in

599
00:26:30,590 --> 00:26:28,650
the in the physical layer permeate

600
00:26:31,810 --> 00:26:30,600
everything above we know that there are

601
00:26:34,370 --> 00:26:31,820
electrons in our brain

602
00:26:37,010 --> 00:26:34,380
well if consciousness is at the bottom

603
00:26:38,539 --> 00:26:37,020
then we know that awareness permeates

604
00:26:40,460 --> 00:26:38,549
everything above this is essentially

605
00:26:42,110 --> 00:26:40,470
what pant psychism is all about if

606
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:42,120
consciousness is simply a part of the

607
00:26:46,789 --> 00:26:44,330
fabric of reality and it's in everything

608
00:26:48,890 --> 00:26:46,799
but well then let me just interject

609
00:26:51,590 --> 00:26:48,900
because you do you have a couple times

610
00:26:54,260 --> 00:26:51,600
kind of interchanged pants psychism and

611
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:54,270
idealism and I mean a lot of folks

612
00:26:58,370 --> 00:26:56,010
who've looked at this a long time like I

613
00:27:01,430 --> 00:26:58,380
do kind of feel like pants psychism is

614
00:27:03,380 --> 00:27:01,440
the kind of last bastion for we're kind

615
00:27:05,980 --> 00:27:03,390
of recovering materialist where they get

616
00:27:08,659 --> 00:27:05,990
I mean it doesn't really make any sense

617
00:27:10,070 --> 00:27:08,669
anymore than super sigh makes any sense

618
00:27:12,110 --> 00:27:10,080
and now we're really talking inside

619
00:27:15,470 --> 00:27:12,120
baseball but let's get back to the I

620
00:27:18,830 --> 00:27:15,480
mean pant psychism does that really work

621
00:27:20,690 --> 00:27:18,840
like you said idealism works but does

622
00:27:22,850 --> 00:27:20,700
pants like doesn't really work well it's

623
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:22,860
a bridge right you don't want to push

624
00:27:29,630 --> 00:27:25,610
people for people I mean it's a

625
00:27:31,370 --> 00:27:29,640
reluctant belief systems yes it's a

626
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:31,380
bridge because you don't want to push

627
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:33,570
people's belief systems too fast because

628
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:35,610
all they'll do is resist it and the

629
00:27:39,500 --> 00:27:37,890
harder you push the more that resists so

630
00:27:42,530 --> 00:27:39,510
if we need to go through pants autism

631
00:27:46,370 --> 00:27:42,540
for a while so be it but ultimately it's

632
00:27:49,820 --> 00:27:46,380
about idealism well okay

633
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:49,830
speaking of pushing and how far we push

634
00:27:56,770 --> 00:27:53,610
and how fast we push I got a push on you

635
00:28:00,320 --> 00:27:56,780
a little bit this is skeptical after all

636
00:28:04,210 --> 00:28:00,330
Theor g and this idea of spirits is

637
00:28:07,540 --> 00:28:04,220
something you deal with in the book

638
00:28:10,780 --> 00:28:07,550
quite a bit but I feel like you're not

639
00:28:13,330 --> 00:28:10,790
really engaging with the esoteric

640
00:28:17,380 --> 00:28:13,340
literature and the esoteric traditions I

641
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:17,390
mean Dean they're saying spirits are at

642
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:20,090
the core of all magic they're saying

643
00:28:23,620 --> 00:28:21,890
this is what magic is so you can break

644
00:28:26,230 --> 00:28:23,630
it into these categories however you

645
00:28:30,070 --> 00:28:26,240
want they're saying we are marshaling

646
00:28:33,100 --> 00:28:30,080
the forces of the spirit world to do our

647
00:28:36,190 --> 00:28:33,110
bidding that is their that is their

648
00:28:37,810 --> 00:28:36,200
claim and can we really just step away

649
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:37,820
from that go well you know we're not

650
00:28:42,310 --> 00:28:39,770
really sure about that scientifically

651
00:28:46,030 --> 00:28:42,320
but then how are we really engaging with

652
00:28:48,490 --> 00:28:46,040
with the magical hypothesis the magical

653
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:48,500
paradigm the magical worldview what are

654
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:52,130
your thoughts on that well the theory

655
00:28:58,960 --> 00:28:55,850
actually is just 1/3 approximately 1/3

656
00:29:00,610 --> 00:28:58,970
of the magical traditions it's it's all

657
00:29:02,950 --> 00:29:00,620
about evoking spirits and so on but

658
00:29:05,650 --> 00:29:02,960
there is definitely a separate category

659
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:05,660
of divination which may or may not have

660
00:29:10,630 --> 00:29:07,970
anything to do with spirits at all and

661
00:29:13,390 --> 00:29:10,640
the same goes for force of will that you

662
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:13,400
you it from a magical ceremonial

663
00:29:18,790 --> 00:29:15,890
perspective you can create spells and so

664
00:29:20,500 --> 00:29:18,800
on where you ask for spirits to

665
00:29:22,450 --> 00:29:20,510
intervene on your behalf but it's not

666
00:29:24,910 --> 00:29:22,460
necessary and it's not found in all

667
00:29:27,190 --> 00:29:24,920
esoteric traditions the reason that I

668
00:29:29,350 --> 00:29:27,200
mentioned is because it's unavoidable

669
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:29,360
within the esoteric literature that that

670
00:29:35,460 --> 00:29:31,250
the whole idea about spirits is clearly

671
00:29:37,660 --> 00:29:35,470
there and if you adopt an idealistic

672
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:37,670
viewpoint where you see that the

673
00:29:41,620 --> 00:29:40,010
consciousness is simply out there and it

674
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:41,630
can express itself in many different

675
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:45,170
ways and suddenly the notion of being

676
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:48,050
human like we're a body that's enlivened

677
00:29:54,310 --> 00:29:51,170
in some way by by this primordial

678
00:29:57,580 --> 00:29:54,320
consciousness so human awareness then

679
00:30:00,220 --> 00:29:57,590
becomes only one form in which awareness

680
00:30:02,860 --> 00:30:00,230
can express itself in which case you

681
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:02,870
could have an infinite number of forms a

682
00:30:08,620 --> 00:30:06,250
giant gasbag could be conscious where an

683
00:30:10,870 --> 00:30:08,630
invisible hunk of energy could be

684
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:10,880
conscious and I can see very easily then

685
00:30:14,170 --> 00:30:12,650
for people who are sensitive to such

686
00:30:18,010 --> 00:30:14,180
things that they would then call it

687
00:30:19,900 --> 00:30:18,020
spirits yeah but I I'd still got a

688
00:30:21,630 --> 00:30:19,910
push on this a little bit because I feel

689
00:30:24,070 --> 00:30:21,640
like the same way when I talk to

690
00:30:26,020 --> 00:30:24,080
Buddhists atheists you know which I've

691
00:30:29,260 --> 00:30:26,030
done several times on the show some of

692
00:30:30,550 --> 00:30:29,270
them are scholars Harvard University

693
00:30:33,910 --> 00:30:30,560
professors who've written these books

694
00:30:35,500 --> 00:30:33,920
and it's like it's it's just craziness I

695
00:30:38,260 --> 00:30:35,510
mean you talk to people who are true

696
00:30:40,750 --> 00:30:38,270
Buddhist scholars I mean the Buddha

697
00:30:44,290 --> 00:30:40,760
whether a real historical figure or not

698
00:30:48,490 --> 00:30:44,300
was totally a meshed in a culture in a

699
00:30:50,050 --> 00:30:48,500
belief system that believed in spirit

700
00:30:51,910 --> 00:30:50,060
beings believed in a larger

701
00:30:54,430 --> 00:30:51,920
consciousness believed in a hierarchy of

702
00:30:59,050 --> 00:30:54,440
consciousness I mean that was the belief

703
00:31:00,970 --> 00:30:59,060
system and the same goes here for for

704
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:00,980
magic so even if you say you know

705
00:31:07,660 --> 00:31:03,530
divination or tarot reading you know

706
00:31:11,740 --> 00:31:07,670
isn't directly trying to marshal the

707
00:31:13,780 --> 00:31:11,750
energy of a spirit yeah but it's

708
00:31:16,390 --> 00:31:13,790
completely anest

709
00:31:19,300 --> 00:31:16,400
in their belief system that there is

710
00:31:24,220 --> 00:31:19,310
this realm and there are these entities

711
00:31:28,060 --> 00:31:24,230
that exist that are running the show is

712
00:31:30,250 --> 00:31:28,070
it not well remember we're not doing a

713
00:31:33,850 --> 00:31:30,260
regression backwards we're trying to

714
00:31:35,890 --> 00:31:33,860
take the the best of the ideas from the

715
00:31:38,890 --> 00:31:35,900
esoteric traditions and actually use

716
00:31:41,970 --> 00:31:38,900
science as best as we can to refine our

717
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:41,980
understanding of what was going on so

718
00:31:45,970 --> 00:31:44,570
for example we know and when we do

719
00:31:48,490 --> 00:31:45,980
something in the laboratory involving

720
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:48,500
precognition we're not inviting spirits

721
00:31:54,490 --> 00:31:51,770
to help us weird it's completely based

722
00:31:56,140 --> 00:31:54,500
on the individual doing an experimental

723
00:31:58,390 --> 00:31:56,150
laboratory and there's no discussion

724
00:32:00,660 --> 00:31:58,400
about spirits at all and yet it works so

725
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:00,670
we know right off the the get-go that

726
00:32:06,850 --> 00:32:03,530
divination does not require the concept

727
00:32:08,830 --> 00:32:06,860
of independent external spirits exactly

728
00:32:12,010 --> 00:32:08,840
the same could be said for psychokinesis

729
00:32:15,730 --> 00:32:12,020
in which case force of will spells do

730
00:32:18,340 --> 00:32:15,740
not require spirits the the this is I

731
00:32:21,940 --> 00:32:18,350
think one of the reasons why in the book

732
00:32:24,670 --> 00:32:21,950
I'm making a case that our resurrection

733
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:24,680
of magical concepts is actually the

734
00:32:28,930 --> 00:32:27,290
frontier of science right because magic

735
00:32:31,690 --> 00:32:28,940
is really just a synonym for we don't

736
00:32:33,399 --> 00:32:31,700
know why it worked and so in some cases

737
00:32:35,500 --> 00:32:33,409
well maybe there are disembodied spirits

738
00:32:37,930 --> 00:32:35,510
that are helping in some way but I don't

739
00:32:41,620 --> 00:32:37,940
think it's necessary I think we we need

740
00:32:44,409 --> 00:32:41,630
to take a more modern view of what's

741
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:44,419
happening here and but also at exactly

742
00:32:48,639 --> 00:32:47,090
the same time to consider the

743
00:32:50,769 --> 00:32:48,649
possibility that what we're seeing in

744
00:32:55,990 --> 00:32:50,779
things like mediumship does involve some

745
00:32:58,960 --> 00:32:56,000
kind of independent entity okay I love

746
00:33:01,480 --> 00:32:58,970
that answer we're not aiming towards

747
00:33:07,539 --> 00:33:01,490
regression we're aiming towards moving

748
00:33:09,340 --> 00:33:07,549
forward great I do have to again let me

749
00:33:10,930 --> 00:33:09,350
play this clip and again I appreciate

750
00:33:12,970 --> 00:33:10,940
that you can't hear and I'll figure out

751
00:33:14,980 --> 00:33:12,980
that technical problem so it's about a

752
00:33:16,299 --> 00:33:14,990
one minute clip and then I'll have to

753
00:33:18,399 --> 00:33:16,309
explain it to you a little bit about

754
00:33:21,460 --> 00:33:18,409
what it says but it's from dr. Steven

755
00:33:23,850 --> 00:33:21,470
Skinner who is a truly an academic

756
00:33:27,310 --> 00:33:23,860
published academic but also a practicing

757
00:33:28,629 --> 00:33:27,320
magician and I played this clip in an

758
00:33:31,389 --> 00:33:28,639
interview that I recently did with

759
00:33:32,950 --> 00:33:31,399
Gordon White who is another practicing

760
00:33:36,129 --> 00:33:32,960
magician and some of you reference in

761
00:33:40,710 --> 00:33:36,139
the book and I want to kind of try and

762
00:33:44,289 --> 00:33:40,720
find refine our understanding of this

763
00:33:46,629 --> 00:33:44,299
worldview clash so again I apologize but

764
00:33:49,930 --> 00:33:46,639
let me play this clip for the listeners

765
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:49,940
you need to get the implements that are

766
00:33:55,210 --> 00:33:52,730
needed such as the sharp knife to draw

767
00:33:57,759 --> 00:33:55,220
the circle otherwise you just a joke so

768
00:33:59,710 --> 00:33:57,769
it's not going to work you need to get

769
00:34:02,409 --> 00:33:59,720
the most appropriate incense for what

770
00:34:04,509 --> 00:34:02,419
you plan to do and you need to get them

771
00:34:05,710 --> 00:34:04,519
ready on a particular day and on that

772
00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:05,720
particular day you need to prepare

773
00:34:12,369 --> 00:34:09,169
yourself by ritually discouraging or

774
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:12,379
preferably bathing beforehand and most

775
00:34:17,980 --> 00:34:15,050
people are not prepared to do that or

776
00:34:20,770 --> 00:34:17,990
they take the view I can just do this in

777
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:20,780
my lunch room when the kids have gone to

778
00:34:25,270 --> 00:34:22,490
bed

779
00:34:28,210 --> 00:34:25,280
okay so let me jump in there I'll cut

780
00:34:29,859 --> 00:34:28,220
dr. Skinner off a little bit early but I

781
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:29,869
think you know where I'm going with this

782
00:34:35,020 --> 00:34:32,290
or you probably don't cuz I'm gonna

783
00:34:37,470 --> 00:34:35,030
remind people of a little story that you

784
00:34:41,079 --> 00:34:37,480
tell many times and it's a great story

785
00:34:46,720 --> 00:34:41,089
do you still have the bent spoon around

786
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:46,730
your desk okay so dr. Reagan has a spoon

787
00:34:51,970 --> 00:34:49,490
that is bent in a very unusual way that

788
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:51,980
you can't normally Bend and you can

789
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:55,010
probably imagine how that's fun is bent

790
00:34:58,930 --> 00:34:56,450
that way he went to a spoon bending

791
00:35:02,500 --> 00:34:58,940
party so this is psychokinesis and we've

792
00:35:04,750 --> 00:35:02,510
seen it demonstrated many times and I

793
00:35:09,730 --> 00:35:04,760
love the fact that you have that on your

794
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:09,740
desk because it's like a reminder of not

795
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:11,570
everything is explainable even though I

796
00:35:18,220 --> 00:35:15,770
investigate it I I can have I'm sure

797
00:35:19,570 --> 00:35:18,230
you've had moments where you want to

798
00:35:22,570 --> 00:35:19,580
kind of move away from a particular

799
00:35:24,460 --> 00:35:22,580
mindset but hey that spoon on your desk

800
00:35:27,490 --> 00:35:24,470
is gonna remind you of it well Stephen

801
00:35:29,770 --> 00:35:27,500
Skinner who I just played the clip of is

802
00:35:31,660 --> 00:35:29,780
a really interesting guy kind of a

803
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:31,670
strange guy in that he talks about these

804
00:35:35,500 --> 00:35:33,530
magical practices that he does and he

805
00:35:37,750 --> 00:35:35,510
talks about how the knife needs to be

806
00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:37,760
sharpened a particular way and the

807
00:35:42,910 --> 00:35:40,250
circle needs to be drawn carefully all I

808
00:35:46,030 --> 00:35:42,920
gotta say all the while I was listening

809
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:46,040
to that Dean I was thinking of you I was

810
00:35:49,839 --> 00:35:48,050
thinking of your lab and I was thinking

811
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:49,849
okay Dean's gonna get this guy in the

812
00:35:55,390 --> 00:35:52,490
lab nice go okay hey let's just try it

813
00:35:57,609 --> 00:35:55,400
with a dull sword this time okay we

814
00:36:00,370 --> 00:35:57,619
think let's just try it with a dull

815
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:00,380
sword right these are controls and these

816
00:36:04,839 --> 00:36:02,330
are kind of controls I could see you

817
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:04,849
apply mm-hmm but if you listen through

818
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:08,930
to the end of dr. Skinner story he talks

819
00:36:15,339 --> 00:36:12,530
about one such ceremonial magic session

820
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:15,349
that he does with apparently a number of

821
00:36:22,690 --> 00:36:18,410
people observing it where he summoned up

822
00:36:25,630 --> 00:36:22,700
these crows and these crows fly down the

823
00:36:29,700 --> 00:36:25,640
chimney and they [\h__\h] all over the place

824
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:29,710
and they leave and he's left with a

825
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:33,890
bunch of crow crap all over and feathers

826
00:36:38,830 --> 00:36:36,530
and everything and so I

827
00:36:40,660 --> 00:36:38,840
listening to the story and this is the

828
00:36:43,780 --> 00:36:40,670
bent spoon moment for me even though I

829
00:36:47,650 --> 00:36:43,790
wasn't there right but it's like what is

830
00:36:49,660 --> 00:36:47,660
Dean gonna do with the crow [\h__\h] cuz

831
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:49,670
that's the bent spoon right I mean it's

832
00:36:54,310 --> 00:36:51,770
one thing to say hey you know you're

833
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:54,320
crazy with this sharpening the sword

834
00:36:59,470 --> 00:36:56,090
thing but it's another thing when you

835
00:37:02,860 --> 00:36:59,480
got the crow crap on the floor and you

836
00:37:06,790 --> 00:37:02,870
thought about what that looks like in

837
00:37:10,450 --> 00:37:06,800
terms of bringing magic into the lab and

838
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:10,460
what kind of what awaits you in terms of

839
00:37:15,370 --> 00:37:13,370
some about if we're to believe any of

840
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:15,380
the accounts what awaits you're some

841
00:37:23,710 --> 00:37:20,770
extremely extremely strange experiences

842
00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:23,720
to which I say bring it on

843
00:37:31,180 --> 00:37:28,730
right I mean I'm not surprised that that

844
00:37:33,370 --> 00:37:31,190
ritual the ceremonial magic is all about

845
00:37:35,020 --> 00:37:33,380
ritual and theater I'm not surprised

846
00:37:36,630 --> 00:37:35,030
that it has bigger results and we

847
00:37:40,450 --> 00:37:36,640
generally see in the laboratory because

848
00:37:42,940 --> 00:37:40,460
ritual is a way of focusing not only one

849
00:37:46,030 --> 00:37:42,950
mind typically but a bunch of minds in a

850
00:37:48,570 --> 00:37:46,040
very emotional way so we know just from

851
00:37:51,610 --> 00:37:48,580
the the literature that large-scale

852
00:37:54,550 --> 00:37:51,620
spontaneous sigh occurs with highly

853
00:37:57,520 --> 00:37:54,560
focused minds in an emotional state thus

854
00:38:00,160 --> 00:37:57,530
ritual the question in it is is the

855
00:38:03,070 --> 00:38:00,170
ritual literally evoking spirits who are

856
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:03,080
making crows do things or bending spoons

857
00:38:09,190 --> 00:38:06,410
well maybe but that's why exactly why I

858
00:38:11,050 --> 00:38:09,200
want to use scientific methods to test

859
00:38:13,540 --> 00:38:11,060
if in fact that's what's going on

860
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:13,550
because we have thousands of years of

861
00:38:18,580 --> 00:38:16,850
people doing a ceremonial magic and it

862
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:18,590
worked it worked well enough for the

863
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:20,930
traditions to continue but they also

864
00:38:24,310 --> 00:38:22,610
didn't have very good ways or maybe they

865
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:24,320
weren't interested in testing what works

866
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:26,210
and what doesn't work and by the way

867
00:38:30,490 --> 00:38:27,770
this is what I'm saying is not a new

868
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:30,500
idea it's exactly what Aleister Crowley

869
00:38:36,430 --> 00:38:32,930
was saying what Peter Carroll was saying

870
00:38:38,170 --> 00:38:36,440
these are magicians in modern era who

871
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:38,180
are basically saying use scientific

872
00:38:43,870 --> 00:38:41,210
methods to begin to refine what we think

873
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:43,880
is important in ceremonial magic but

874
00:38:50,500 --> 00:38:47,530
maybe it isn't maybe 99% of it is simply

875
00:38:53,380 --> 00:38:50,510
ceremony and in theater

876
00:38:54,850 --> 00:38:53,390
so that's the way that's the approach

877
00:38:57,190 --> 00:38:54,860
that I'm taking on this and again

878
00:38:59,770 --> 00:38:57,200
exactly why I'm saying that using

879
00:39:02,350 --> 00:38:59,780
science to begin to refine and actually

880
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:02,360
understand what is going on here is

881
00:39:08,590 --> 00:39:05,810
important because again if if we assume

882
00:39:12,010 --> 00:39:08,600
them that idealism is a better way of

883
00:39:16,570 --> 00:39:12,020
thinking about reality then in some

884
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:16,580
respects the refined mind can make

885
00:39:21,100 --> 00:39:18,530
anything happen

886
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:21,110
that isn't imaginable like you really do

887
00:39:26,290 --> 00:39:23,290
become only limited by your imagination

888
00:39:28,870 --> 00:39:26,300
so if the ceremony is all about getting

889
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:28,880
crows to appear and so on you can easily

890
00:39:34,150 --> 00:39:30,890
do that that's that's not even that

891
00:39:36,130 --> 00:39:34,160
difficult Oh will they take on a certain

892
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:36,140
independence you know you don't want the

893
00:39:40,540 --> 00:39:38,570
crows pooping on you but maybe when you

894
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:40,550
evoke it it has its own independent

895
00:39:45,340 --> 00:39:42,530
existence you've some of you've

896
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:45,350
literally manifested the thing and of

897
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:49,010
course there's a lot of of stories in

898
00:39:54,820 --> 00:39:50,570
the literature and the magic literature

899
00:39:56,770 --> 00:39:54,830
about creating entities out of mud

900
00:39:59,560 --> 00:39:56,780
the Buddhists have it there's that a

901
00:40:01,150 --> 00:39:59,570
long Jewish tradition about this where

902
00:40:03,700 --> 00:40:01,160
they accidentally take on a life of

903
00:40:04,630 --> 00:40:03,710
their own and then you may not have much

904
00:40:07,330 --> 00:40:04,640
control over it

905
00:40:09,220 --> 00:40:07,340
so when I talk about fear G in the book

906
00:40:10,750 --> 00:40:09,230
I'm mainly talking about things like

907
00:40:13,020 --> 00:40:10,760
near-death experience and a few other

908
00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:13,030
areas of parapsychology that talk about

909
00:40:18,540 --> 00:40:16,730
the possibility of independent entities

910
00:40:22,300 --> 00:40:18,550
but when it comes to actually doing

911
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:22,310
theour g doing ceremonial magic i among

912
00:40:26,530 --> 00:40:24,530
other things tell the reader that this

913
00:40:27,940 --> 00:40:26,540
is not something that you should start

914
00:40:30,970 --> 00:40:27,950
doing because you read something in a

915
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:30,980
book we're dealing like right on the

916
00:40:35,500 --> 00:40:33,530
edge of something which can be extremely

917
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:35,510
dangerous for an individual so I tell

918
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:37,490
people don't don't say I didn't warn you

919
00:40:41,170 --> 00:40:39,410
I do not recommend that you do this

920
00:40:44,020 --> 00:40:41,180
unless you know what you're doing this

921
00:40:47,830 --> 00:40:44,030
is by far been the most difficult piece

922
00:40:51,220 --> 00:40:47,840
for me to begin to think about because

923
00:40:53,290 --> 00:40:51,230
it's so far away from the world that I

924
00:40:58,360 --> 00:40:53,300
was brought up in and even though the

925
00:41:00,580 --> 00:40:58,370
parapsychology that I've done but I kind

926
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:00,590
of have been forced to accept the

927
00:41:03,810 --> 00:41:02,690
possibility that such things actually do

928
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:03,820
exist

929
00:41:07,410 --> 00:41:05,290
this is as a result of doing all this

930
00:41:11,310 --> 00:41:07,420
research and thinking about the

931
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:11,320
consequences of an idealistic model fair

932
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:15,490
enough so let me poke you again one more

933
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:18,130
time and that's on in de science

934
00:41:24,420 --> 00:41:20,050
near-death experience science and you

935
00:41:27,510 --> 00:41:24,430
just mentioned it a minute ago I just

936
00:41:30,630 --> 00:41:27,520
don't think you quite have it right in

937
00:41:33,540 --> 00:41:30,640
the book and I think you're leaning a

938
00:41:35,250 --> 00:41:33,550
little bit in my in my investigation of

939
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:35,260
it and talking to so many near-death

940
00:41:40,890 --> 00:41:38,530
experience researchers you're kind of

941
00:41:43,140 --> 00:41:40,900
falling for the materialistic claptrap

942
00:41:46,110 --> 00:41:43,150
that's out there about NDE science and

943
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:46,120
that there's just too much good evidence

944
00:41:50,670 --> 00:41:47,890
of it I'm gonna again play for people

945
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:50,680
and then I'll we'll talk about it a

946
00:41:55,830 --> 00:41:52,330
little bit but if you'll allow me to

947
00:41:58,020 --> 00:41:55,840
play a one minute clip from dr. Jeffery

948
00:42:00,690 --> 00:41:58,030
long who is from the near-death

949
00:42:03,210 --> 00:42:00,700
experience Research Foundation but is a

950
00:42:05,610 --> 00:42:03,220
practicing a radiologist works with

951
00:42:08,310 --> 00:42:05,620
dying people works with people under

952
00:42:12,590 --> 00:42:08,320
anesthesia all the time and here's what

953
00:42:15,690 --> 00:42:12,600
he had to say about some of his research

954
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:15,700
when you're under general anesthesia it

955
00:42:20,820 --> 00:42:17,410
should be impossible to have a lucid

956
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:20,830
organized remembrance at that time in

957
00:42:24,750 --> 00:42:22,690
fact under anesthesia you're typically

958
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:24,760
so far under with general anesthesia

959
00:42:28,620 --> 00:42:26,650
they often have to breathe for you I

960
00:42:31,530 --> 00:42:28,630
mean you're literally brain shut down to

961
00:42:33,630 --> 00:42:31,540
the level of the brainstem and at that

962
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:33,640
point in time some people have a cardiac

963
00:42:36,810 --> 00:42:35,290
arrest their heart stops and of course

964
00:42:39,060 --> 00:42:36,820
that's very well documented

965
00:42:41,700 --> 00:42:39,070
they monitor people very carefully that

966
00:42:43,530 --> 00:42:41,710
are having general anesthesia so I have

967
00:42:45,660 --> 00:42:43,540
dozens and dozens of near-death

968
00:42:48,150 --> 00:42:45,670
experiences that occurred under general

969
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:48,160
anesthesia and at this time it should be

970
00:42:53,220 --> 00:42:51,010
if you will doubly impossible to have a

971
00:42:55,380 --> 00:42:53,230
conscious remembrance and yet they do

972
00:42:58,050 --> 00:42:55,390
have near-death experiences at this time

973
00:43:00,240 --> 00:42:58,060
and their typical near-death experiences

974
00:43:01,650 --> 00:43:00,250
they have the same elements and appear

975
00:43:03,510 --> 00:43:01,660
to have them in the same order as

976
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:03,520
near-death experiences occurring under

977
00:43:07,500 --> 00:43:06,130
all other you know again there's so much

978
00:43:09,270 --> 00:43:07,510
frustration from people who've really

979
00:43:12,660 --> 00:43:09,280
looked at your death experience because

980
00:43:15,330 --> 00:43:12,670
every half-assed explanation that

981
00:43:17,609 --> 00:43:15,340
mainstream science comes up with the

982
00:43:20,489 --> 00:43:17,619
rats at the University of Michigan

983
00:43:22,499 --> 00:43:20,499
or the coma patients are all this number

984
00:43:24,210 --> 00:43:22,509
one they've never studied near-death

985
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:24,220
experience and they don't even study

986
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:25,930
near-death experience in their research

987
00:43:30,900 --> 00:43:28,210
and yet they try and make all these

988
00:43:33,180 --> 00:43:30,910
leaps and conclusions what dr. long is

989
00:43:35,670 --> 00:43:33,190
explaining here is let's go with what we

990
00:43:37,559 --> 00:43:35,680
already know for example when someone's

991
00:43:39,779 --> 00:43:37,569
under anesthesia particularly really

992
00:43:42,980 --> 00:43:39,789
deep anesthesia anesthesia is so deep

993
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:42,990
sometimes that we have to manage the

994
00:43:47,099 --> 00:43:45,249
heartbeat of people because their heart

995
00:43:50,430 --> 00:43:47,109
literally stops breathing they're so far

996
00:43:53,279 --> 00:43:50,440
that deep in anesthesia well we have a

997
00:43:56,450 --> 00:43:53,289
long history of understanding brain

998
00:44:00,870 --> 00:43:56,460
activity memories and all of the

999
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:00,880
formation of of thoughts and ideas under

1000
00:44:07,319 --> 00:44:03,490
that medication and we know it doesn't

1001
00:44:09,150 --> 00:44:07,329
exist so you know what again near-death

1002
00:44:12,749 --> 00:44:09,160
experiences real consciousness survives

1003
00:44:14,789 --> 00:44:12,759
death is the Occam's razor explanation

1004
00:44:19,220 --> 00:44:14,799
for what's happening if someone wants to

1005
00:44:22,859 --> 00:44:19,230
invent some an entirely new model of

1006
00:44:25,410 --> 00:44:22,869
Neurology of how the brain works I mean

1007
00:44:28,979 --> 00:44:25,420
if that's what we're doing well then

1008
00:44:32,130 --> 00:44:28,989
great but until you kind of flesh out

1009
00:44:34,829 --> 00:44:32,140
that theory you've got to kind of follow

1010
00:44:38,370 --> 00:44:34,839
this data where it goes and I kind of

1011
00:44:44,729 --> 00:44:38,380
felt like you were giving a little bit

1012
00:44:47,220 --> 00:44:44,739
too much credence to the skeptical view

1013
00:44:50,609 --> 00:44:47,230
of near-death experience in terms of it

1014
00:44:53,190 --> 00:44:50,619
not being the evidence for survival of

1015
00:44:55,890 --> 00:44:53,200
consciousness that virtually every

1016
00:45:01,259 --> 00:44:55,900
near-death experience researcher thinks

1017
00:45:03,809 --> 00:45:01,269
it is so what say you dr. Raydon the

1018
00:45:06,420 --> 00:45:03,819
problem is we don't know when the

1019
00:45:08,519 --> 00:45:06,430
near-death experience occurs that's the

1020
00:45:11,130 --> 00:45:08,529
problem I'm not discounting that that

1021
00:45:13,710 --> 00:45:11,140
strange perhaps psychic effects are

1022
00:45:16,259 --> 00:45:13,720
going on and I don't think a

1023
00:45:19,499 --> 00:45:16,269
materialistic perspective explains those

1024
00:45:20,789 --> 00:45:19,509
experiences but what I do say is that

1025
00:45:22,769 --> 00:45:20,799
when somebody reports that they're out

1026
00:45:25,319 --> 00:45:22,779
of their body or that something happened

1027
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:25,329
and they later is verified we don't know

1028
00:45:29,339 --> 00:45:26,890
when and because we know that

1029
00:45:31,010 --> 00:45:29,349
precognition exists and we cross we know

1030
00:45:34,010 --> 00:45:31,020
that side perception is

1031
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:34,020
very slippery in time well maybe their

1032
00:45:39,890 --> 00:45:37,170
entire experience occurs in a flash from

1033
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:39,900
our conventional perspective just before

1034
00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:42,450
they go into anesthesia or just after

1035
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:44,730
they come out of coma and until we have

1036
00:45:49,250 --> 00:45:46,650
a way of knowing when the experience

1037
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:49,260
occurs but Dean let me interject there I

1038
00:45:53,900 --> 00:45:51,930
mean I just interviewed again dr. penny

1039
00:45:56,180 --> 00:45:53,910
Sartori and this is research that's been

1040
00:45:59,750 --> 00:45:56,190
published for 20 years I also read

1041
00:46:02,000 --> 00:45:59,760
interviews dr. John Holden from North

1042
00:46:04,970 --> 00:46:02,010
Texas who just published a few years ago

1043
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:04,980
with Bruce Grayson the I don't know a

1044
00:46:10,850 --> 00:46:07,650
definitive compilation of near-death

1045
00:46:12,740 --> 00:46:10,860
experience research in we do know we do

1046
00:46:16,490 --> 00:46:12,750
know I mean the very simple way we know

1047
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:16,500
is they do interviews with people and

1048
00:46:21,380 --> 00:46:17,850
they ask them to recount their

1049
00:46:23,090 --> 00:46:21,390
resuscitation procedure and they have a

1050
00:46:24,980 --> 00:46:23,100
control group of people who didn't have

1051
00:46:26,240 --> 00:46:24,990
a near-death experience and then they

1052
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:26,250
have another group that did have a

1053
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:28,410
near-death experience when they go ask

1054
00:46:33,410 --> 00:46:29,970
the control group the control group

1055
00:46:35,930 --> 00:46:33,420
grows what do you mean I was dead I

1056
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:35,940
don't recall being resuscitated and then

1057
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:38,130
you have the the group that did have the

1058
00:46:42,170 --> 00:46:39,450
near-death experience and they go oh

1059
00:46:43,970 --> 00:46:42,180
yeah oh the cart was was wheeled in and

1060
00:46:46,430 --> 00:46:43,980
what about the paddles no there were no

1061
00:46:48,110 --> 00:46:46,440
paddles and like doctors Sartori will

1062
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:48,120
tell you is you know when you force

1063
00:46:51,530 --> 00:46:49,290
people to guess in this situation

1064
00:46:53,510 --> 00:46:51,540
they'll go oh well okay well then they

1065
00:46:55,460 --> 00:46:53,520
put paddles on me and she said you know

1066
00:46:57,310 --> 00:46:55,470
that's one of the tell-tale signs is in

1067
00:47:00,260 --> 00:46:57,320
this hospital that she was doing it in

1068
00:47:03,530 --> 00:47:00,270
paddles were very infrequently used so I

1069
00:47:06,170 --> 00:47:03,540
mean there's some detailed data points

1070
00:47:09,550 --> 00:47:06,180
that they can collect and compare and

1071
00:47:12,500 --> 00:47:09,560
say clearly this group has a

1072
00:47:16,490 --> 00:47:12,510
recollection of their resuscitation

1073
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:16,500
that is one unexplainable but to answers

1074
00:47:22,820 --> 00:47:20,610
this timeline question of at least that

1075
00:47:25,370 --> 00:47:22,830
the best we can yeah but that's that's

1076
00:47:28,220 --> 00:47:25,380
the that's the rub isn't it they we

1077
00:47:31,190 --> 00:47:28,230
don't actually know when it occurs we

1078
00:47:32,720 --> 00:47:31,200
don't and so I mean I've talked to Joe

1079
00:47:34,490 --> 00:47:32,730
mcmoneagle about how he does remote

1080
00:47:36,950 --> 00:47:34,500
viewing as an example and he says well

1081
00:47:39,710 --> 00:47:36,960
he knows that next Tuesday somebody's

1082
00:47:41,900 --> 00:47:39,720
going to hand them a photograph and he

1083
00:47:43,610 --> 00:47:41,910
needs to describe it well the moment he

1084
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:43,620
knows that that's a task in the future

1085
00:47:47,540 --> 00:47:45,050
he has the answer already

1086
00:47:49,790 --> 00:47:47,550
so how did he end he has it in full

1087
00:47:51,530 --> 00:47:49,800
detail I mean he described a submarine

1088
00:47:54,710 --> 00:47:51,540
nine months in advance in great gory

1089
00:47:57,070 --> 00:47:54,720
detail so it the idea that that somebody

1090
00:48:00,320 --> 00:47:57,080
can describe a sequence of events that

1091
00:48:03,140 --> 00:48:00,330
in the future that is vertically correct

1092
00:48:05,540 --> 00:48:03,150
is well-established as a sigh phenomena

1093
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:05,550
and the people can do and there's no

1094
00:48:09,590 --> 00:48:07,530
better way of getting into a sigh

1095
00:48:13,460 --> 00:48:09,600
conducive state than having your body go

1096
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:13,470
away for a while so so we I would say

1097
00:48:18,860 --> 00:48:16,410
then that yes I completely understand

1098
00:48:21,230 --> 00:48:18,870
the the counter-arguments but I am not

1099
00:48:23,350 --> 00:48:21,240
persuaded I'm not persuaded until we get

1100
00:48:26,060 --> 00:48:23,360
to a point where we have a way of

1101
00:48:28,100 --> 00:48:26,070
communicating in some fashion to the

1102
00:48:29,930 --> 00:48:28,110
person when they are in fact dead and

1103
00:48:31,100 --> 00:48:29,940
the only way I can think of doing that

1104
00:48:32,930 --> 00:48:31,110
at this point and maybe through

1105
00:48:34,130 --> 00:48:32,940
mediumship but even a mediumship we

1106
00:48:36,230 --> 00:48:34,140
don't know where the information comes

1107
00:48:40,670 --> 00:48:36,240
from yeah but if we're gonna play this

1108
00:48:42,850 --> 00:48:40,680
consensus reality game which at some

1109
00:48:45,380 --> 00:48:42,860
point if consciousness is fundamental if

1110
00:48:47,230 --> 00:48:45,390
everything is as you're alluding to

1111
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:47,240
before if everything is a thought-form

1112
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:51,810
if we are creating our reality literally

1113
00:48:56,180 --> 00:48:54,210
and creating some of the entities that

1114
00:48:58,820 --> 00:48:56,190
we interact with if we're creating those

1115
00:48:59,660 --> 00:48:58,830
crows well then really all bets are off

1116
00:49:01,670 --> 00:48:59,670
anyway

1117
00:49:04,850 --> 00:49:01,680
the idea of bringing any of this into

1118
00:49:07,130 --> 00:49:04,860
the lab what is a lab measuring it what

1119
00:49:10,220 --> 00:49:07,140
is measuring all that stuff goes out the

1120
00:49:12,470 --> 00:49:10,230
window so no no no see if there's a very

1121
00:49:14,420 --> 00:49:12,480
important not to do a regression to the

1122
00:49:15,980 --> 00:49:14,430
past we don't simply want to accept

1123
00:49:18,110 --> 00:49:15,990
something because that may be the

1124
00:49:20,060 --> 00:49:18,120
explanation it makes us feel good I'd

1125
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:20,070
love to think that the consciousness

1126
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:21,930
persists in some way as I think most

1127
00:49:26,540 --> 00:49:24,570
people would but also aware science you

1128
00:49:28,810 --> 00:49:26,550
should know just make sure we're talking

1129
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:28,820
about the same thing I'm saying every

1130
00:49:36,590 --> 00:49:33,570
experiment in your lab can be explained

1131
00:49:38,510 --> 00:49:36,600
by spirit intervention that you're not

1132
00:49:42,050 --> 00:49:38,520
aware of that you will never be aware of

1133
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:42,060
because if spirits have this power to

1134
00:49:46,070 --> 00:49:44,130
present themselves or not present

1135
00:49:49,910 --> 00:49:46,080
themselves or for to believe the

1136
00:49:51,500 --> 00:49:49,920
accounts deceive or not deceive that you

1137
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:51,510
will have no way of knowing you're

1138
00:49:54,470 --> 00:49:52,890
looking through the wrong end of the

1139
00:49:57,260 --> 00:49:54,480
telescope there's an order of

1140
00:49:59,079 --> 00:49:57,270
intelligence that I'm just hypothesizing

1141
00:50:00,700 --> 00:49:59,089
here which is much greater so

1142
00:50:03,190 --> 00:50:00,710
the idea that you're somehow going to be

1143
00:50:06,549 --> 00:50:03,200
able to measure that is if we're gonna

1144
00:50:09,069 --> 00:50:06,559
go down that path we can always pull

1145
00:50:10,450 --> 00:50:09,079
that pull that card out in the same way

1146
00:50:12,670 --> 00:50:10,460
that you're pulling out that card with

1147
00:50:14,829 --> 00:50:12,680
your death experience science I mean at

1148
00:50:16,959 --> 00:50:14,839
some point we have to say okay we're

1149
00:50:18,910 --> 00:50:16,969
gonna play this game of consensus

1150
00:50:20,859 --> 00:50:18,920
reality of science game that we can

1151
00:50:22,839 --> 00:50:20,869
collect and we can measure but at

1152
00:50:24,339 --> 00:50:22,849
another level we can't collect we can't

1153
00:50:26,019 --> 00:50:24,349
measure that's the idea that

1154
00:50:28,329 --> 00:50:26,029
consciousness is Right know when

1155
00:50:32,309 --> 00:50:28,339
everything is the platform so the the

1156
00:50:35,140 --> 00:50:32,319
the question then is can we approach

1157
00:50:37,359 --> 00:50:35,150
magical concepts let's say can we

1158
00:50:41,019 --> 00:50:37,369
approach those ideas in a way which is

1159
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:41,029
not dependent on faith because the the

1160
00:50:43,450 --> 00:50:42,170
approach that yours that what I'm

1161
00:50:46,450 --> 00:50:43,460
hearing what you're saying is basically

1162
00:50:49,029 --> 00:50:46,460
we basically make a religion about it

1163
00:50:51,579 --> 00:50:49,039
that is a regression in my viewpoint and

1164
00:50:53,620 --> 00:50:51,589
that's I don't know whether humans in

1165
00:50:55,630 --> 00:50:53,630
our current form are clever enough to be

1166
00:50:57,759 --> 00:50:55,640
able to figure out how to answer these

1167
00:50:59,349 --> 00:50:57,769
questions but if you ask people a

1168
00:51:01,509 --> 00:50:59,359
thousand years ago how are they going to

1169
00:51:03,700 --> 00:51:01,519
make an iPhone they wouldn't even know

1170
00:51:06,660 --> 00:51:03,710
what you're talking about so we are

1171
00:51:09,130 --> 00:51:06,670
clever we we need to figure out ways of

1172
00:51:13,690 --> 00:51:09,140
assuming that there's a larger reality

1173
00:51:16,390 --> 00:51:13,700
and and begin figure out how to to

1174
00:51:18,549 --> 00:51:16,400
understand it in ways that have the same

1175
00:51:21,130 --> 00:51:18,559
level of power that materialism has had

1176
00:51:24,519 --> 00:51:21,140
to allow us to build the technologies

1177
00:51:27,579 --> 00:51:24,529
that we have today so as maybe it's true

1178
00:51:30,219 --> 00:51:27,589
that Homo sapiens is not sufficiently

1179
00:51:32,620 --> 00:51:30,229
intelligent to do it it's possible maybe

1180
00:51:34,809 --> 00:51:32,630
we need artificial intelligence

1181
00:51:35,999 --> 00:51:34,819
overlords who will be more intelligent

1182
00:51:38,589 --> 00:51:36,009
than us that can figure out ways of

1183
00:51:41,950 --> 00:51:38,599
probing that domain but that's what I

1184
00:51:45,549 --> 00:51:41,960
see is the future of science and and not

1185
00:51:46,900 --> 00:51:45,559
I'm not interested in simply accepting

1186
00:51:50,259 --> 00:51:46,910
things because we're not clever enough

1187
00:51:53,700 --> 00:51:50,269
to figure out what to do with it what a

1188
00:51:57,789 --> 00:51:53,710
wonderful answer you end the book with

1189
00:52:00,930 --> 00:51:57,799
this magic is real let's deal with it

1190
00:52:04,779 --> 00:52:00,940
yep but I can't think of a better way to

1191
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:04,789
to add to that than what you already

1192
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:07,130
said I think it's it's wonderful I don't

1193
00:52:12,490 --> 00:52:09,170
quite agree with you but I think it's

1194
00:52:15,130 --> 00:52:12,500
absolute the best answer I've heard so

1195
00:52:18,490 --> 00:52:15,140
Dean again this book and again it folks

1196
00:52:21,670 --> 00:52:18,500
our guest has been dr. Dean Radin his

1197
00:52:25,090 --> 00:52:21,680
new book real magic ancient wisdom

1198
00:52:27,580 --> 00:52:25,100
modern science and a guide to the secret

1199
00:52:30,430 --> 00:52:27,590
power of the universe is going to be out

1200
00:52:34,090 --> 00:52:30,440
April 10th right right what can people

1201
00:52:36,070 --> 00:52:34,100
expect along with the book what kind of

1202
00:52:38,500 --> 00:52:36,080
appearances are you gonna do are you

1203
00:52:40,720 --> 00:52:38,510
putting out any videos is there any

1204
00:52:46,950 --> 00:52:40,730
follow-up to the book that you have

1205
00:52:50,980 --> 00:52:46,960
planned I do have a videographer who is

1206
00:52:55,330 --> 00:52:50,990
making a kind of cartoon graphic novel

1207
00:52:57,940 --> 00:52:55,340
version of it will be a video mostly

1208
00:53:00,730 --> 00:52:57,950
though I'm doing lots of podcasts and

1209
00:53:02,380 --> 00:53:00,740
radio shows and that sort of thing going

1210
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:02,390
to a number of conferences and talking

1211
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:06,290
about it and if if past history serves

1212
00:53:12,700 --> 00:53:08,770
me I'll probably end up doing about 50

1213
00:53:16,810 --> 00:53:12,710
talks in various forms per month for the

1214
00:53:19,450 --> 00:53:16,820
remainder of this year well great I'm

1215
00:53:21,510 --> 00:53:19,460
really glad you did this talk it was

1216
00:53:23,620 --> 00:53:21,520
great connecting with you again and

1217
00:53:26,980 --> 00:53:23,630
congratulations wish you of course all

1218
00:53:29,980 --> 00:53:26,990
the best with real magic but with your

1219
00:53:34,270 --> 00:53:29,990
work in general it's it's so awesome

1220
00:53:36,670 --> 00:53:34,280
that that you have come along during

1221
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:36,680
this time during our time in history and

1222
00:53:41,050 --> 00:53:39,890
have done what you've done again as we

1223
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:41,060
started this show talking about the

1224
00:53:46,030 --> 00:53:42,770
legacy we won't fully appreciate it

1225
00:53:49,090 --> 00:53:46,040
until maybe our kids or something

1226
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:49,100
looking back but it's it's just amazing

1227
00:53:54,340 --> 00:53:51,530
what you've done with your career so I

1228
00:53:56,230 --> 00:53:54,350
mean that wholeheartedly so Dean thanks

1229
00:53:58,720 --> 00:53:56,240
for joining me today and best of luck

1230
00:54:00,760 --> 00:53:58,730
with real magic thank you so thanks for

1231
00:54:03,190 --> 00:54:00,770
watching this video if it wasn't really

1232
00:54:04,930 --> 00:54:03,200
a video but just an audio stored as a

1233
00:54:07,030 --> 00:54:04,940
video well I apologize but there's more

1234
00:54:08,980 --> 00:54:07,040
videos out there as well but please

1235
00:54:10,450 --> 00:54:08,990
check out the Skeptical website you can

1236
00:54:12,090 --> 00:54:10,460
see it here we cover a lot of different

1237
00:54:15,070 --> 00:54:12,100
stuff you might be interested in

1238
00:54:17,890 --> 00:54:15,080
relating to controversial science and

1239
00:54:21,100 --> 00:54:17,900
spirituality a lot of shows up there

1240
00:54:23,850 --> 00:54:21,110
over 350 of them are so all free all

1241
00:54:25,340 --> 00:54:23,860
available for download so do